Discussion:
[lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
(too old to reply)
Florian Rossmark
2018-07-03 20:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

We do have a Metro Ethernet with a TMARC on both ends in place and are
wondering a bit about the actual real bandwidth. We have a 100 MBit/s
connection but see it only utilized to around 50% of the possible speed
when we e.g. transfer files. There are no collisions on the ports that
connect to the TMARCs.

The provider so far did not come up with a proper explanation - in the end
we lease a 100 MBit/s connection so I would expect to see transfer rates up
to at least 80-90%.

One of our Internet connections is a 100 MBit/s and we see it utilizing up
to 100%.

The provider back end is doing 1 GBit/s - meaning there is enough
bandwidth.

Our primary target on the other side of the MetroEthernet terminates in a 1
GBit/s - it is a main routing point. We tried various targets within the
circuit and never pass over the approximate 50% - other targets are as well
on 100 MBit/s.



Having said all of this - what is your experience with the actual real
world transfer rate in MBit/s respective Mbps - not talking about MByte/s -
all in bit..



This might actually help to determine if we really have an issue or not. I
know there is some slack on the line with about 70ms round trip time (e.g.
PING) - that actually increases once we put some load on the line - still -
if you have a 100 MBit/s connection - shouldn't you get more or is this due
to the whole MetroEthernet/TMARC constellation in the background?

Wanted to mention as well that this connection is actually going across the
USA - I have a co-worker that had a more local MetroEthernet at another
company before and they reached and utilized the 100 MBit/s just fine.



Regards
Florian Rossmark
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Bill Bogstad
2018-07-03 20:22:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
We do have a Metro Ethernet with a TMARC on both ends in place and are wondering a bit about the actual real bandwidth. We have a 100 MBit/s connection but see it only utilized to around 50% of the possible speed when we e.g. transfer files. There are no collisions on the ports that connect to the TMARCs.
You don't say much about how you are testing this. With bad latency
and bad software, you could very well get lower than 50% of expected
bandwidth. I would suggest testing the link with a lower level tool
and using UDP rather than TCP to get closer to a "raw" performance
number for the link. The iperf command line tool which is available
for Linux is one possible option to check this.

Good Luck,
Bill Bogstad
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Florian Rossmark
2018-07-03 20:43:18 UTC
Permalink
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport bandwidth



But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am mainly looking for some broader input from the community since providers lack of really telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would expect way more then we see..



Any input is welcome of course :-)

Florian
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Ross West
2018-07-03 20:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Florian,

You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go back a
decade and that was a different answer). Especially on 100mbps
point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones). 100_G_bps is where
things are problematic.

I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms RTT. If it's
not, there's an issue on the circuit.

Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do 100mbps
end-to-end.

Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth tests.
Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will always be
slow in that case.

R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport bandwidth
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am mainly looking
for some broader input from the community since providers lack of really
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would expect
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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Florian Rossmark
2018-07-03 21:49:47 UTC
Permalink
I totally agree I should get more and I wonder about the lag of 70ms, but what would be normal on this with the circuits we have in use? The lag sure explains a good part of it.

Thank you
Florian Rossmark

________________________________
From: Ross West <***@linepoint.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:53:17 PM
To: ***@lopsa.org
Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds

Hi Florian,

You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go back a
decade and that was a different answer). Especially on 100mbps
point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones). 100_G_bps is where
things are problematic.

I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms RTT. If it's
not, there's an issue on the circuit.

Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do 100mbps
end-to-end.

Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth tests.
Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will always be
slow in that case.

R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport bandwidth
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am mainly looking
for some broader input from the community since providers lack of really
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would expect
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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Robert Hajime Lanning
2018-07-03 21:58:39 UTC
Permalink
What is the geographical distance between the two points?
Post by Florian Rossmark
I totally agree I should get more and I wonder about the lag of 70ms,
but what would be normal on this with the circuits we have in use? The
lag sure explains a good part of it.
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:53:17 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
Hi Florian,
You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go back a
decade and that was a different answer).  Especially on 100mbps
point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones).  100_G_bps is where
things are problematic.
I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms RTT.  If it's
not, there's an issue on the circuit.
Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do 100mbps
end-to-end.
Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth tests.
Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will always be
slow in that case.
R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport bandwidth
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am mainly looking
for some broader input from the community since providers lack of
really
Post by Florian Rossmark
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would expect
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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Florian Rossmark
2018-07-03 22:00:01 UTC
Permalink
upper north east corner of the USA too lower south west corner


Thank you
Florian Rossmark

________________________________
From: Robert Hajime Lanning <***@lanning.cc>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:58:39 PM
To: ***@lopsa.org
Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds

What is the geographical distance between the two points?

On 07/03/18 14:49, Florian Rossmark wrote:
I totally agree I should get more and I wonder about the lag of 70ms, but what would be normal on this with the circuits we have in use? The lag sure explains a good part of it.

Thank you
Florian Rossmark

________________________________
From: Ross West <***@linepoint.com><mailto:***@linepoint.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:53:17 PM
To: ***@lopsa.org<mailto:***@lopsa.org>
Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds

Hi Florian,

You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go back a
decade and that was a different answer). Especially on 100mbps
point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones). 100_G_bps is where
things are problematic.

I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms RTT. If it's
not, there's an issue on the circuit.

Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do 100mbps
end-to-end.

Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth tests.
Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will always be
slow in that case.

R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport bandwidth
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am mainly looking
for some broader input from the community since providers lack of really
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would expect
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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Robert Hajime Lanning
2018-07-03 22:11:32 UTC
Permalink
Your RTT is about right.

Over the internet (AT&T Metro-Eth Sunnyvale CA to AWS us-east-1 and back):
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 77.979/78.066/78.298/0.328 ms
Post by Florian Rossmark
upper north east corner of the USA too lower south west corner
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:58:39 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
What is the geographical distance between the two points?
Post by Florian Rossmark
I totally agree I should get more and I wonder about the lag of 70ms,
but what would be normal on this with the circuits we have in use?
The lag sure explains a good part of it.
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:53:17 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
Hi Florian,
You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go back a
decade and that was a different answer).  Especially on 100mbps
point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones). 100_G_bps is where
things are problematic.
I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms RTT.  If it's
not, there's an issue on the circuit.
Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do 100mbps
end-to-end.
Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth tests.
Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will always be
slow in that case.
R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport bandwidth
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am mainly
looking
Post by Florian Rossmark
for some broader input from the community since providers lack of
really
Post by Florian Rossmark
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would expect
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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Florian Rossmark
2018-07-03 22:13:29 UTC
Permalink
How do you determine that, are there statistics somewhere? Sorry for asking so much, but I love proof and facts.

In any case, what bandwidth would you expect then? 50% ?

Thank you
Florian Rossmark

________________________________
From: Robert Hajime Lanning <***@lanning.cc>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:11:32 PM
To: ***@lopsa.org
Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds

Your RTT is about right.

Over the internet (AT&T Metro-Eth Sunnyvale CA to AWS us-east-1 and back):
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 77.979/78.066/78.298/0.328 ms

On 07/03/18 15:00, Florian Rossmark wrote:
upper north east corner of the USA too lower south west corner


Thank you
Florian Rossmark

________________________________
From: Robert Hajime Lanning <***@lanning.cc><mailto:***@lanning.cc>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:58:39 PM
To: ***@lopsa.org<mailto:***@lopsa.org>
Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds

What is the geographical distance between the two points?

On 07/03/18 14:49, Florian Rossmark wrote:
I totally agree I should get more and I wonder about the lag of 70ms, but what would be normal on this with the circuits we have in use? The lag sure explains a good part of it.

Thank you
Florian Rossmark

________________________________
From: Ross West <***@linepoint.com><mailto:***@linepoint.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:53:17 PM
To: ***@lopsa.org<mailto:***@lopsa.org>
Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds

Hi Florian,

You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go back a
decade and that was a different answer). Especially on 100mbps
point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones). 100_G_bps is where
things are problematic.

I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms RTT. If it's
not, there's an issue on the circuit.

Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do 100mbps
end-to-end.

Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth tests.
Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will always be
slow in that case.

R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport bandwidth
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am mainly looking
for some broader input from the community since providers lack of really
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would expect
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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Robert Hajime Lanning
2018-07-03 22:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Like others have said, I would expect 98% to 100% of the allotted bandwidth.

Also check packet loss. That would cause TCP to have a fit.

If you are using a protocol that is latency sensitive, then that is your
problem with the choice of protocol. With a latency sensitive protocol,
you would have to run multiple instances of the protocol to saturate the
link.

You should be able to saturate the link with a straight FTP of a large
file. Because of TCP slow start, you will need to allow time it to pick
up speed.

SMB and SSH/SCP have severe limitations with large latencies. (Pretty
much any "chatty" protocols.)
Post by Florian Rossmark
How do you determine that, are there statistics somewhere? Sorry for
asking so much, but I love proof and facts.
In any case, what bandwidth would you expect then? 50% ?
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:11:32 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
Your RTT is about right.
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 77.979/78.066/78.298/0.328 ms
Post by Florian Rossmark
upper north east corner of the USA too lower south west corner
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:58:39 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
What is the geographical distance between the two points?
Post by Florian Rossmark
I totally agree I should get more and I wonder about the lag of
70ms, but what would be normal on this with the circuits we have in
use? The lag sure explains a good part of it.
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:53:17 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
Hi Florian,
You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go back a
decade and that was a different answer).  Especially on 100mbps
point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones). 100_G_bps is where
things are problematic.
I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms RTT.  If it's
not, there's an issue on the circuit.
Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do 100mbps
end-to-end.
Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth tests.
Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will always be
slow in that case.
R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport
bandwidth
Post by Florian Rossmark
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am mainly
looking
Post by Florian Rossmark
for some broader input from the community since providers lack of
really
Post by Florian Rossmark
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would expect
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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Michael Kennedy
2018-07-03 22:46:34 UTC
Permalink
While I agree that we should hold our Internet Service Providers to a high
standard, this is really seems like more of a TCP window and latency
problem.

Florian, not sure what link or distance you're covering with 70ms latency,
or whether there are media conversions that account for that latency, but
70ms is high latency in today's world. The speed of light suggests that an
RTT of 70ms is ~10450km in distance.

If you have a link with 70ms of latency with a 64kbps TCP window, you can
expect about 7.5Mb per flow. You may be able to run more than one flow,
but any one TCP flow will be limited by the latency to receive
SYNACKs/ACKs, etc.

The formula is basically (# bit TCP window / # sec latency), so assuming a
standard 64KB TCP window, in your case this would be: 524,288/0.07
= 7,489,828

If you want to calculate what latency you would need to reach your max
bandwidth the formula looks like (# bit TCP window / bandwidth in bits/sec)
or 524,288/104,857,600 = 0.005 or 5ms

So, if you want to reach a maximum flow rate of 100Mbps, you would need a
latency of 5ms or under.

Make sense?

MK
Post by Florian Rossmark
How do you determine that, are there statistics somewhere? Sorry for
asking so much, but I love proof and facts.
In any case, what bandwidth would you expect then? 50% ?
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:11:32 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
Your RTT is about right.
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 77.979/78.066/78.298/0.328 ms
upper north east corner of the USA too lower south west corner
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:58:39 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
What is the geographical distance between the two points?
I totally agree I should get more and I wonder about the lag of 70ms, but
what would be normal on this with the circuits we have in use? The lag sure
explains a good part of it.
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:53:17 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
Hi Florian,
You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go back a
decade and that was a different answer). Especially on 100mbps
point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones). 100_G_bps is where
things are problematic.
I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms RTT. If it's
not, there's an issue on the circuit.
Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do 100mbps
end-to-end.
Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth tests.
Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will always be
slow in that case.
R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport bandwidth
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am mainly looking
for some broader input from the community since providers lack of really
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would expect
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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Post by Florian Rossmark
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Florian Rossmark
2018-07-03 23:13:13 UTC
Permalink
Yes, that helps a lot. I like the distance and light speed and handoff respective connectors. The distance actually appears to be accurate, cross country. This is more of an answer I expected to get from the isp after he even bounced me of with his tir3, now it actually makes more sense and I got the explanation I was asking for.



Thank you
Florian Rossmark

________________________________
From: Michael Kennedy <***@kennedy.io>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:46:34 PM
To: Florian Rossmark
Cc: ***@lopsa.org; Robert Hajime Lanning
Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds

While I agree that we should hold our Internet Service Providers to a high standard, this is really seems like more of a TCP window and latency problem.

Florian, not sure what link or distance you're covering with 70ms latency, or whether there are media conversions that account for that latency, but 70ms is high latency in today's world. The speed of light suggests that an RTT of 70ms is ~10450km in distance.

If you have a link with 70ms of latency with a 64kbps TCP window, you can expect about 7.5Mb per flow. You may be able to run more than one flow, but any one TCP flow will be limited by the latency to receive SYNACKs/ACKs, etc.

The formula is basically (# bit TCP window / # sec latency), so assuming a standard 64KB TCP window, in your case this would be: 524,288/0.07 = 7,489,828

If you want to calculate what latency you would need to reach your max bandwidth the formula looks like (# bit TCP window / bandwidth in bits/sec) or 524,288/104,857,600 = 0.005 or 5ms

So, if you want to reach a maximum flow rate of 100Mbps, you would need a latency of 5ms or under.

Make sense?

MK


On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:13 PM, Florian Rossmark <***@frjsr.com<mailto:***@frjsr.com>> wrote:
How do you determine that, are there statistics somewhere? Sorry for asking so much, but I love proof and facts.

In any case, what bandwidth would you expect then? 50% ?

Thank you
Florian Rossmark

________________________________
From: Robert Hajime Lanning <***@lanning.cc>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:11:32 PM

To: ***@lopsa.org<mailto:***@lopsa.org>
Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds

Your RTT is about right.

Over the internet (AT&T Metro-Eth Sunnyvale CA to AWS us-east-1 and back):
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 77.979/78.066/78.298/0.328 ms

On 07/03/18 15:00, Florian Rossmark wrote:
upper north east corner of the USA too lower south west corner


Thank you
Florian Rossmark

________________________________
From: Robert Hajime Lanning <***@lanning.cc><mailto:***@lanning.cc>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:58:39 PM
To: ***@lopsa.org<mailto:***@lopsa.org>
Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds

What is the geographical distance between the two points?

On 07/03/18 14:49, Florian Rossmark wrote:
I totally agree I should get more and I wonder about the lag of 70ms, but what would be normal on this with the circuits we have in use? The lag sure explains a good part of it.

Thank you
Florian Rossmark

________________________________
From: Ross West <***@linepoint.com><mailto:***@linepoint.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:53:17 PM
To: ***@lopsa.org<mailto:***@lopsa.org>
Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds

Hi Florian,

You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go back a
decade and that was a different answer). Especially on 100mbps
point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones). 100_G_bps is where
things are problematic.

I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms RTT. If it's
not, there's an issue on the circuit.

Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do 100mbps
end-to-end.

Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth tests.
Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will always be
slow in that case.

R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport bandwidth
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am mainly looking
for some broader input from the community since providers lack of really
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would expect
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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Doug Hughes
2018-07-04 01:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Agree with bandwidth-delay product.

You can totally utilize the link with a single stream by increasing your
TCP sliding window size. You can either use some optimization appliance
to do this (e.g. SilverPeak, WAAS, other), or you can tune it on your
endpoints. The settings for Linux and Windows are documented, just
search for tuning your TCP sliding window size. 2MB should do it.

Note - it will cause some additional memory use, but in these days of
16GB plus desktops, it's really not much to worry about.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Yes, that helps a lot. I like the distance and light speed and handoff
respective connectors. The distance actually appears to be accurate,
cross country. This is more of an answer I expected to get from the
isp after he even bounced me of with his tir3, now it actually makes
more sense and I got the explanation I was asking for.
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:46:34 PM
*To:* Florian Rossmark
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
 
While I agree that we should hold our Internet Service Providers to a
high standard, this is really seems like more of a TCP window and
latency problem.
Florian, not sure what link or distance you're covering with 70ms
latency, or whether there are media conversions that account for that
latency, but 70ms is high latency in today's world.  The speed of
light suggests that an RTT of 70ms is ~10450km in distance.
If you have a link with 70ms of latency with a 64kbps TCP window, you
can expect about 7.5Mb per flow.  You may be able to run more than one
flow, but any one TCP flow will be limited by the latency to receive
SYNACKs/ACKs, etc.
The formula is basically (# bit TCP window / # sec latency), so
assuming a standard 64KB TCP window, in your case this would be: 
524,288/0.07 = 7,489,828
If you want to calculate what latency you would need to reach your max
bandwidth the formula looks like (# bit TCP window / bandwidth in
bits/sec) or 524,288/104,857,600 = 0.005 or 5ms
So, if you want to reach a maximum flow rate of 100Mbps, you would
need a latency of 5ms or under.
Make sense?
MK
How do you determine that, are there statistics somewhere? Sorry
for asking so much, but I love proof and facts.
In any case, what bandwidth would you expect then? 50% ?
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:11:32 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
 
Your RTT is about right.
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 77.979/78.066/78.298/0.328 ms
Post by Florian Rossmark
upper north east corner of the USA too lower south west corner
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:58:39 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
 
What is the geographical distance between the two points?
Post by Florian Rossmark
I totally agree I should get more and I wonder about the lag of
70ms, but what would be normal on this with the circuits we have
in use? The lag sure explains a good part of it.
Thank you
Florian Rossmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:53:17 PM
*Subject:* Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
 
Hi Florian,
You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go back a
decade and that was a different answer).  Especially on 100mbps
point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones).  100_G_bps is where
things are problematic.
I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms RTT.  If it's
not, there's an issue on the circuit.
Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do 100mbps
end-to-end.
Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth tests.
Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will always be
slow in that case.
R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport
bandwidth
Post by Florian Rossmark
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am
mainly looking
Post by Florian Rossmark
for some broader input from the community since providers lack
of really
Post by Florian Rossmark
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally would
expect
Post by Florian Rossmark
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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John Stoffel
2018-07-06 19:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Me too, and I've had to fight this in the past too with various WAN
accelerators, like SilverPeak, etc. One tool to use for testing is
'bbcp' which you can find out on the internets. It was the only way I
could fill my dual DS3 links at one poinrt (90mbs from Boston to San
Jose) because of the bandwidth delay product. It was nicer having the
WAN accelerators because it was simpler than updating all the end
points.

Especially since I couldn't tune my Netapps running 7-mode to get
better snapmirror performance. The SilverPeak accelerators helped,
though it wasn't earth shattering for that use case.

For regular users doing NFS or CIFS or SCP or FTP transfers, it made a
noticeable difference. If you look back in the archives, you'll see
me talking about this stuff around 10 years ago.

iperf might be a good tool to use for testing. Esp if you bounce the
TCP window size up. You really need to watch the per-second bps rate
when doing your testing, you'll see a classic sawtooth speed change if
it's TCP window size cuasing your slowdowns.

But more details on how you're testing would be helpful to help you.


Doug> Agree with bandwidth-delay product.
Doug> You can totally utilize the link with a single stream by increasing your TCP
Doug> sliding window size. You can either use some optimization appliance to do this
Doug> (e.g. SilverPeak, WAAS, other), or you can tune it on your endpoints. The
Doug> settings for Linux and Windows are documented, just search for tuning your TCP
Doug> sliding window size. 2MB should do it.

Doug> Note - it will cause some additional memory use, but in these days of 16GB plus
Doug> desktops, it's really not much to worry about.



Doug> On 7/3/2018 7:13 PM, Florian Rossmark wrote:

Doug> Yes, that helps a lot. I like the distance and light speed and handoff
Doug> respective connectors. The distance actually appears to be accurate, cross
Doug> country. This is more of an answer I expected to get from the isp after he
Doug> even bounced me of with his tir3, now it actually makes more sense and I
Doug> got the explanation I was asking for.



Doug> Thank you
Doug> Florian Rossmark

Doug> ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
Doug> From: Michael Kennedy <***@kennedy.io>
Doug> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:46:34 PM
Doug> To: Florian Rossmark
Doug> Cc: ***@lopsa.org; Robert Hajime Lanning
Doug> Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
Doug>  
Doug> While I agree that we should hold our Internet Service Providers to a high
Doug> standard, this is really seems like more of a TCP window and latency
Doug> problem.

Doug> Florian, not sure what link or distance you're covering with 70ms latency,
Doug> or whether there are media conversions that account for that latency, but
Doug> 70ms is high latency in today's world.  The speed of light suggests that an
Doug> RTT of 70ms is ~10450km in distance.

Doug> If you have a link with 70ms of latency with a 64kbps TCP window, you can
Doug> expect about 7.5Mb per flow.  You may be able to run more than one flow,
Doug> but any one TCP flow will be limited by the latency to receive SYNACKs/
Doug> ACKs, etc.

Doug> The formula is basically (# bit TCP window / # sec latency), so assuming a
Doug> standard 64KB TCP window, in your case this would be:  524,288/0.07 =
Doug>  7,489,828

Doug> If you want to calculate what latency you would need to reach your max
Doug> bandwidth the formula looks like (# bit TCP window / bandwidth in bits/sec)
Doug> or 524,288/104,857,600 = 0.005 or 5ms

Doug> So, if you want to reach a maximum flow rate of 100Mbps, you would need a
Doug> latency of 5ms or under.

Doug> Make sense?

Doug> MK


Doug> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:13 PM, Florian Rossmark <***@frjsr.com> wrote:

Doug> How do you determine that, are there statistics somewhere? Sorry for
Doug> asking so much, but I love proof and facts.

Doug> In any case, what bandwidth would you expect then? 50% ?

Doug> Thank you
Doug> Florian Rossmark

Doug> ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
Doug> From: Robert Hajime Lanning <***@lanning.cc>
Doug> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 3:11:32 PM

Doug> To: ***@lopsa.org
Doug> Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
Doug>  
Doug> Your RTT is about right.

Doug> Over the internet (AT&T Metro-Eth Sunnyvale CA to AWS us-east-1 and
Doug> back):
Doug> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 77.979/78.066/78.298/0.328 ms

Doug> On 07/03/18 15:00, Florian Rossmark wrote:

Doug> upper north east corner of the USA too lower south west corner


Doug> Thank you
Doug> Florian Rossmark

Doug> ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
Doug> From: Robert Hajime Lanning <***@lanning.cc>
Doug> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:58:39 PM
Doug> To: ***@lopsa.org
Doug> Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world speeds
Doug>  
Doug> What is the geographical distance between the two points?

Doug> On 07/03/18 14:49, Florian Rossmark wrote:

Doug> I totally agree I should get more and I wonder about the lag of
Doug> 70ms, but what would be normal on this with the circuits we
Doug> have in use? The lag sure explains a good part of it.

Doug> Thank you
Doug> Florian Rossmark

Doug> ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
Doug> From: Ross West <***@linepoint.com>
Doug> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:53:17 PM
Doug> To: ***@lopsa.org
Doug> Subject: Re: [lopsa-tech] MetroEthernet / TMARC real world
Doug> speeds
Doug>  
Doug> Hi Florian,

Doug> You should get the full speeds at all times (*these days - go
Doug> back a
Doug> decade and that was a different answer).  Especially on 100mbps
Doug> point-to-point type circuits (not internet ones).  100_G_bps is
Doug> where
Doug> things are problematic.

Doug> I'm assuming this is cross country circuit with your 70+ms
Doug> RTT.  If it's
Doug> not, there's an issue on the circuit.

Doug> Which brings out: Have the provider prove the circuit can do
Doug> 100mbps
Doug> end-to-end.

Doug> Otherwise as Bill said, check how you're doing the bandwidth
Doug> tests.
Doug> Some applications can't handle high latency at all and will
Doug> always be
Doug> slow in that case.

Doug> R.
Post by Florian Rossmark
Well - I see it on the switchport directly - Cisco switchport
Doug> bandwidth
Post by Florian Rossmark
But yes - I understand what you are saying. Still - I am
Doug> mainly looking
Post by Florian Rossmark
for some broader input from the community since providers
Doug> lack of really
Post by Florian Rossmark
telling you what you get out of 100MBit/s - I personally
Doug> would expect
Post by Florian Rossmark
way more then we see..
Any input is welcome of course :-)
Florian
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